Additionally, the conversation explores the challenges educators face, such as time constraints and the need for professional development that supports flexible and inclusive teaching practices.
The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.
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Jon Eckert:
We're excited to have Allison Posey in today. She is an amazing educator that, I just have to say this, I met in Paris just a week or so ago, and it was a great privilege to meet her at a UNESCO conference on inclusive education, how do we educate more kids around the world, which was a fascinating conference to be at. And so really excited to meet her and for you to meet her as well. So Allison, great to have you on today.
Allison Posey:
Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Jon Eckert:
Can you just give us a little bit of your journey that brought you to CAST and Universal Design for Learning, which we'll get into what that is in a little bit, but what got you to the position that you're in now?
Allison Posey:
Well, I started to jump back one step and then I went two steps back. So I was teaching at a really cool program called, actually I don't like the title of it, the Center for Talented Youth because what youth is not talented, but there is a certain measure that was used to assess students on a kind of talent, one kind of talent. And they would come to Johns Hopkins for the summer and study one thing really intensely. So I got to teach neuroscience for six weeks in the summer to really interested students. And when I say interested, we had to take the books away from them after seven hours of being in the classroom, so they would have to go socialize and do kind of the camp thing. So a lot of neuroscience, a lot of learning, gifted and talented. Right.
Allison Posey:
And I had a student one year who we were having these incredible conversations about learning in the brain. He basically had read the college level textbook in a week, and this was a high school student. And yeah, at first I was like, I don't know about that. But the more we started talking, I thought, wow, he really is making sense of all. It took me six years to get through this textbook. He's really making sense of it all. And when I went to score his first assessment, it was completely blank and he didn't complete any of his assignments.
Allison Posey:
And I found out from his parent at the meetings at the end with the families that he was failing four out of his five high school courses and was severely depressed and at risk of dropping out. And I was so upset by this one, because I didn't know it as his teacher. I'd been working with him for these six weeks and I didn't realize it was at that level. And two, I realized I didn't know how to teach. So ironically, here I am teaching about the brain and I didn't feel like I knew how to reach the humans who had the brains with all the stuff that I was teaching. So I went to graduate school. I will get to the answer to your question.
Jon Eckert:
No, I love this path. I did not know where you were going with this. But again, you first, you start off with every teacher's dream, kids you have to take the books away from after seven hours. And then that realization that I don't really know what I'm doing when it's not actually working or the way that curriculum's being implemented, at least in those four of those five classes, it's not working. What do I do? So love that start.
Allison Posey:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Keep going.
Allison Posey:
And I was 10 years into my teaching about. So I'd been doing this for a while, just this feeling of I actually don't know what I'm doing. So Harvard had this amazing program called Mind, Brain & Education, and I thought, well, I know about the brain and I've been an educator. Let me check it out. And I was so fortunate to have as an advisor, David Rose, who is the founder of CAST and Universal Design for Learning. He was my advisor. It was just such a gift. So I learned about this framework. Well, actually let me take a little tiptoe back. The first article we read in this program was that the connection between neuroscience research and classroom practice is a bridge too far, that what we're learning in neuroscience labs that are isolated, maybe one individual at a time doing one task in very controlled environments are completely different from what we would do in a classroom with dozens of students and fire alarms and all this stuff.
Allison Posey:
And I don't know how you felt when you heard me say that, but I was angry. I absolutely was like these two fields need to be talking to each other. And I have really literally made it my profession to try to bridge the gap. And there are a lot of times when I'm having conversations with educators that I've noticed, I'm like, well, the gap may be a little too far between neuroscience and the bridge between neuroscience and education, but we need to keep having the conversations. So Universal Design for Learning is a framework that really is trying to make connections between the neuroscience of learning and the best high leverage practices that there are in order to reach each and every individual. So I think I finally got to the answer to your question.
Jon Eckert:
But what a great journey to it. You got there because of a need you observed as a teacher. And to me, that's the whole benefit of why we go back to grad school. So I always tell people that are looking at a Master's or an EDD or a PhD, wait until you've taught a few years because you'll have plenty of questions that you're trying to figure out. I thought this, but when I worked with kids, I realized this or I worked with other adults, I realized this. And so what a brilliant reason to go to UDL and CAST. So I guess let's do this.
Allison Posey:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Tell us a little bit about Universal Design for Learning in case people don't know what that is. I will say at the UNESCO conference, everybody there from around the world seemed to know what UDL was. So it may be very few of you don't know what it is, but talk about that as a way to connect neuroscience in the classroom because we get this all the time. If you want to sell a book, it feels like in education, throw neuroscience in there and it's like, oh, there's neuroscience in there. It must mean something. But talk about how UDL is that practical bridge to make sure each kid's needs are met and the talents that they have can flourish in a classroom.
Allison Posey:
It was actually very exciting to see. UDL talked about a lot at UNESCO without CAST, the originators of UDL needing to say anything about it. I mean, I wasn't the one presenting on it. So it was amazing to get to learn from folks how this framework is helping. It is a teaching and learning framework. So if your school or district doesn't have a common framework for teaching, this is a great framework because it gives a common language for learning that is grounded in the brain. So I don't have to label students as having disabilities. I don't have to take a deficit mindset. I can use UDL to proactively plan an environment that anticipates the variability of learning that we know will have in our classroom. And there are nine different dimensions that UDL explores through our UDL guidelines. And then under each of those dimensions of learning, there are a bunch of our tried and true strategies.
Allison Posey:
So I don't have, UDL is not, I always, I'll say to educators, I wish I had a magic wand and it was like the tool that engaged each learner in the learning. I don't have that tool, but I have a framework that can help you think about the design and how it's meeting or not meeting the needs of all the students. And it is liberating to not have to feel like I need to label each and every student with a deficit of what they can't do. Instead, I just look to make a creative, flexible learning space. And that space might include the methods that you're using, the materials that are there, the goals and the assessments. Even the assessments. As much as we love our standardized tests here in the US, really thinking deeply about how the assessments are universally designed and flexible to make sure you're able to get at the constructs that you're wanting to measure in the assessments as well. So we look at UDL across those four dimensions of curricula.
Jon Eckert:
Well, what I love about that as a 12-year teaching veteran of what I call real teaching, I've been in higher ed now 15 years, and I feel like that's fake teaching. You get some of those kids that you have to take the books away from, which as a middle school science teacher, it's like, yeah, that wasn't really a problem for most of the kids I was teaching, but I had a few. What I love about it is when you think about the RTI or MTSS, Multi-Tiered System of Support, UDL is a tier one support for each kid. So you do that so that you don't have to start labeling and elevating kids and you're trying to meet each kid's needs through materials that make them really interesting to teach. Teaching's infinitely interesting, but it becomes overwhelming when we don't have the tools in place to help us do it.
Jon Eckert:
The same thing I wanted to say about UDL. I first became aware of it when I was writing test items. I wrote test items for seven different states for Houghton Mifflin's testing company Riverside. And one of the things we always had to do is we had to use UDL principles in all the items that we wrote or they wouldn't be accepted. So you got paid per item that made it through the screeners, so you paid really close attention to those pieces. And if it didn't hit the UDL standards. Now I don't know that I always achieved exactly what CAST would say would be a UDL standard because you're still doing multiple choice tests with an open response. It's challenging sometimes to do this. They also wanted us writing the top levels of Bloom's taxonomy with multiple choice items, which I still argue is impossible, but I would do my best.
Jon Eckert:
But I love that about UDL because it couples the instruction with the assessment and I, however, we're assessing, I get frustrated in the US and people say, Hey, we don't want to teach to the test. Then what are you teaching to? The key is, is the test a good test? We're always teaching to an assessment. If we're not teaching to an assessment, then we're just performing. And so UDL says, here's the way we're going to deliver instruction, and here's also how we're going to assess. Because any good teacher wants to teach to an assessment. It's just we don't want to teach the bad assessments. And that's where I appreciate the critique that, hey, if it's not a good assessment, then what am I doing? But if I'm not assessing what the student's doing, then how do I know I taught anything?
Jon Eckert:
And so it goes back to that great quote. I don't know if you got exposed to the seven step lesson plan from Madeline Hunter. It was how I got taught to teach and it was not UDL, but there were elements of UDL in it before UDL existed. But she said this, "To say you've taught when no one has learned is to say you have sold when no one bought." And so to me, UDL can be that nice through line between instruction and assessment. Am I overstating anything? Is there anything you'd push back on there or anything you'd want to add?
Allison Posey:
The thing I would push back on is the goal of UDL isn't to be able to achieve an assessment, but the goal is to be able to develop expertise around learning about whatever it is you want to learn about. So we call it expert learning. Now, I think I would say a lot of the language at UNESCO was around even student agency, being able to know what you need to know to do your best learning, and whether that's to take a test so that you can now learn how to drive and that's your goal, or whether it's to become a scientist, or a musician, or whatever it is that you're wanting to do, and be, and the joy you find in life that you're pursuing, that you know how to be strategic to get what you need. You know how to build your background and importantly, you know how to sustain effort and persistence so that you can engage in a way that's meaningful.
Allison Posey:
And in that sentence, I just used the three UDL principles. So those three principles really do align with what we know about learning and the brain and you have be engaged in order to even pay attention and build the background you need to be able to do what you need to do. So those three principles really are broadly aligned to this model and this way of thinking. So yes to the assessments, but yes to pushing on assessments to really be meaningful and what we need to do in the communities and in the society so that they're connected a little bit tighter. And the other thing you said that I really appreciate is that you're never done. It's never like, there is one thing where I'm like, wow, we did it. Check UDL off the list. There are always more ways of thinking about those assessment questions, your resources, your materials to make sure that they're accessible and that folks can engage and take action strategically with them.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and I really appreciate that corrective because I came to UDL through the assessment and that was the filter. And I thought it was sometimes a little artificial, but the idea that you're building student agency, you're building cognitive endurance so that they can do meaningful things, that's what we want. And so I like to think of assessment much more broadly as saying, hey, how do we know that you have that agency? What are the markers that show that? And I think that's a much broader perspective than what I came to it with. And so I appreciate that and it gives that, feeds that you're never done. And that's why we're always learning, as educators we're always learning, and our students are always learning and they're growing, but they have to have a passion for what they're doing. So you have to be able to know them, see them, do that, to tap into that cognitive endurance so it doesn't become a compliance culture.
Jon Eckert:
And I think we've done that in a lot of schools, and I think UDL pushes back on that. I'll give you one example that is a compliance culture for teachers. I still walk in classrooms. I'm like, oh, there's the learning target dutifully written on the board. Well, that's fine, but that doesn't mean anything meaningful is happening for kids. And it becomes a checklist thing to the point you made. And if UDL becomes, oh, we're using UDL check, it's like, no, that's not the point. And so I feel like there's that culture sometimes in US schools where we want to make sure it's being done. So that becomes a checklist. And it's like, well, if you have a really bad teacher, it's better to have a learning target on the board. It's better to use UDL than not, but that doesn't actually mean meaningful learnings happening. And so I think there needs to be a better onboarding of educators, a real time, here's what this looks like, feedback for them as they use UDL. How does CAST, if at all, how do you engage in that kind of training and support for educators?
Allison Posey:
Oh, you are talking to the right person. I have been thinking about this for years.
Jon Eckert:
Good, good.
Allison Posey:
There is no easy answer, but I was actually on the team that worked to really try to develop credentials around UDL. How do you look for and measure what's largely a mindset? Because I do use all the same tools. As I was saying, it's not like all of a sudden you have UDL and there's a magic tool that's different and the classroom looks differently. What's different is my mindset in my mindset of the high expectations for all learners. And if there's a barrier, the barrier is framed in the design of the environment and reduced because I've co-constructed that with my students, with my learners. That is really hard to get a video of, to take a picture of, to gather data around. And so our credential process has tried to identify a minimum. So we have a mindset credential, we have an analysis credential, and then we have an application credential because we realize you don't just all of a sudden shift your mindset and start doing everything differently.
Allison Posey:
You actually, and I've written again, told you, I think about this a lot. I wrote a whole book on unlearning, how you actually have to unlearn a lot of your tried and true practices that you went through school doing, you went through teacher prep maybe even doing in order to trade up for this really different mindset. I would argue, at least in my experience in the US schools and the little bit that I've been internationally, we still are largely a deficit-based approach where we have kind of a pre-made lasagna lesson that I like to call it. And if a student doesn't do it in more or less the same way, at more or less the same time, we think there's something wrong and we have to fix the student as opposed to saying, wait a minute, it's probably this pre-made lasagna lesson that assumes incorrectly that there is going to be an average student.
Allison Posey:
And one thing we know from brain science, mathematicians don't like me to say this, one thing we know from brain science is there is no average learner. When you look at brain scans across hundreds of individuals and you look at their average, it matches no one. It's an amazing thing. So in education, we might say, oh, well we have the high group, as I was telling you that that's who they thought they had. They were so much variability in those learners across. And I ended up using UDL to think about nine different dimensions of that variability to really kind of get at the complexity of what educators are tasked to do. And that's to educate each and every student. I mean, it's such an underappreciated profession because it is so hard to do.
Jon Eckert:
Right. Well, and I just pulled up your book, Unlearning, which is a great title for the book. And what we have to do that. The thing that I worry about, two things. We will take this and turn it into a scripted curriculum, which is taking at least elementary schools by storm in the United States because we have de-professionalized education to where we don't have highly trained people in the classroom where it's like, well, let's give them a script and if a student responds this way, you respond this way. Or we're putting in front of a screen which can be adaptive and can do some of those things. I have that concern. And the second concern I have is that we make teaching seem so complex that very conscientious, hardworking, intelligent educators will say, I just can't do this. This is too much. How does UDL get you focused on the right things without making it so it's a script, but it simplifies it in a way that it feels doable because that's what I hear about UDL. How do you see that playing out, if at all, or are my concerns valid?
Allison Posey:
No, you say it so well. I think one, we need UDL for educators as well. They are learners and they have brains and they are interacting in these school systems and often do not have the tools and resources and flexibility they need to be able to do their jobs well and they are not paid enough. I would love, love for teachers to actually make what they deserve in wages and to find the difference that that might make. Okay. So UDL for educators as well.
Jon Eckert:
Get on your soapbox. Okay.
Allison Posey:
See, I got so into that. I forgot my second point that I was going to make. Oh, descriptiveness of UDL. Here's the secret to UDL. We can provide options. Right. A grocery store has options. It has lots of options. And if I just walk into the grocery store and I'm like, I have options. I don't know what I'm buying, I get frustrated, I'm confused, there all these things you can do. That's like education. We have all these tools, all these things. Often what we're lacking is a very clear goal. You mentioned goals earlier and goals are different from standards, but it's really breaking down, like for this moment in time, here's what I really want my learners to know, do, or care about. And when you have such a clear vision of that, like I know that I'm going to go grocery shopping for the hockey team dinner, I'm going to be so strategic in a different way than I'm shopping for the UNESCO picnic that we're going to have. Right.
Jon Eckert:
Right.
Allison Posey:
So depending on the goal, you make such different choices. And so those goals are often in my work with educators, and I've been in the UDL world for 12 years, so it's been a while now. We really end up returning to what's the goal? And very often we hear, here's the activity, or we hear, what's this chapter of the book? And it's like, no, but what's the goal? And once you identify the goal, then you can better identify how to be flexible within that. So it takes more work on the front end. It does. People don't always like to hear. It takes more work on the front end, but it saves you work on the back end. And more learners are able to get to that goal because it's clear, we've reduced some of the hidden biases that are in our like, well, don't you already know how to do that? And why don't you have that private tutor? And it just makes the process so much more transparent.
Allison Posey:
But it's again, largely not what we're doing in our schools and classrooms now. So you actively have to unlearn. And that takes energy and is hard. So do it small, start small, have teams and people working together with you to build that culture where the flexibility is valued because you recognize that learner variability.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
Allison Posey:
And the number of times, yeah, go ahead.
Jon Eckert:
No, I was going to say that's the life-giving part of teaching, when you see kids doing things that they didn't think they could do. And so that's where it keeps you coming back and it makes it worth the effort. And so it's way more fun to put the effort on the front end where kids can be successful and trying to give them feedback on ways that you're like, I clearly did not set this up. We did not have a clear target, we didn't have success criteria. We didn't... And so totally 100% agree. The effort on the front ends, way more rewarding than trying to clean up a bad assignment on the back end. So yeah.
Allison Posey:
Yeah, just like a bad dinner party. It's so much to say. Everyone didn't like my one lasagna I gave them. What?
Jon Eckert:
Good example. So let me wrap us up with our lightning round. So given all your experience with UDL and some of the misapplication of some of the research and the neuroscience that you know, what's the worst piece of advice you've ever heard? It doesn't have to be related to UDL, but it could be. But worst piece of advice you've gotten as an educator.
Allison Posey:
Oh, one of them was don't smile the first half of the year.
Jon Eckert:
I need to go back. We've done about 40 of these podcasts and I think in about 30 of them when I've asked it, that's the worst piece of advice that comes up every time.
Allison Posey:
No kidding. Yes. Right.
Jon Eckert:
It's horrible advice because it dehumanizes teaching.
Allison Posey:
It's all about the relationships and the community. So why would you not have that from the beginning?
Jon Eckert:
Right. I do not know. I hope that advice is not, I hope it's just because I'm old, that that feels like advice,-
Allison Posey:
Oh, I have a different one maybe. Maybe here's another one. Check your emotions at the door.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, similar, right? Ridiculous. And you've also written a book on emotions, right?
Allison Posey:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Yes.
Allison Posey:
Yes. You are never without those emotions. In fact, if you check them at the door, there's a problem.
Jon Eckert:
Right. And part of decision making includes emotions. I think emotions have kind of gotten a little bit, they've gotten a bad rap and now there's kind of a corrective coming. So super helpful. All right. Best piece of advice you've ever received?
Allison Posey:
Oh, this will be for my mentor David Rose. Oh, she just came to mind, but I'll stick to one. Anything worth doing will probably not be achieved in your lifetime.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, wow. That's, okay. And then give me the second one too because you said you had two.
Allison Posey:
Teaching's emotional work.
Jon Eckert:
Ah. All right. No. Hey, that's a good reminder. And I just read the Same as Ever by Morgan Housel. And he had this thing, he came out in November of 2023. He said, "We don't celebrate incremental improvement enough." So if you look at heart disease and the way it's been managed since the 1950s, we've made a one and a half percent improvement every year since the 1950s. And you're never going to get a headline, hey, we made a one and a half percent improvement in heart disease treatment.
Allison Posey:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
But over time, that compounding interest is huge. And I think as educators, we need to remember it's not, and I've quit talking about solutions and I focus on improvement because I think solutions indicate that we think that there's some place that we arrive at, which we talked about earlier. We don't. We just keep improving. And so that's where... Super helpful piece there. Okay. What's the biggest challenge you see for educators? We can go worldwide or in the US. You pick your audience. What's the biggest challenge you see?
Allison Posey:
I mean, the biggest challenge I hear over and over is time. We just don't have time to do the curriculum adaptation that we need to do, to have the conversations, to do the one-on-one. So we do hear repeatedly that time is a barrier. But I will say from my perspective, it's the mindset. It's really, the deficit mindset is still so pervasive and we pass that on to students. So they think they're not science students or they're just not good at math. I mean, they have these raw generalizations that, again, from a neuroscience perspective, we know is not true, so.
Jon Eckert:
That's good.
Allison Posey:
Yeah, I think that deficit mindset's our biggest challenge right now.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and John Hattie's work on mind frames reinforces that as well. I mean, very similar kinds of framing. And I do think, well, and Ronald Heifetz work on adaptive challenges. He's a Harvard guy. Your degrees from Harvard. The idea that technical challenges are real, but adaptive challenges require a change in mindset because the problem and solution are unclear. And so many of the issues that we deal with in education are adaptive and not technical. As we keep slapping more technical band aids on adaptive challenges, teachers get cynical as they should.
Allison Posey:
They should. Yes.
Jon Eckert:
As they should.
Allison Posey:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. So what's your best hope for educators as you look ahead?
Allison Posey:
I just hope they see the impact. It's such an important profession and we need the best people in it. I thank teachers all the time for doing the work they do, because one student at a time makes a difference and it has such opportunity to promote change and to make that difference. It's our future, it's our collective future. So it's such an important profession.
Jon Eckert:
It's a good word Allison. Good word to end on. Well, hey, thank you for the work you do.
Allison Posey:
It's more than one word.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
Allison Posey:
I'm rarely down to one word.
Jon Eckert:
Hey, that's all right. That's all right. You did better than I would've done. But thanks for what you do and thanks you for the time that you gave us today.
Allison Posey:
I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.