Christina shares the transformation happening in schools that embrace phone-free environments. Through strategic programs and student-driven goals, she shows how embracing JOMO empowers young people to live with purpose and become light in dark digital spaces.
Be encouraged.
Mentioned:
The Joy of Missing Out: Finding Balance in a Wired World by Christina Crook
experience JOMO
Life of the Beloved by Henri Nouwen
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University
Jon Eckert LinkedIn
Baylor MA in School Leadership
Jon Eckert:
All right, Christina, welcome to the Just Schools Podcast. We've been big fans of your work for a long time. So, tell us a little bit about how you got into this work.
Christina Crook:
Yeah. Thanks for having me, Jon. This has been a long time coming, it's a joy to be here. So, yeah, how did the work of JOMO begin? I began my career in public broadcasting based here in Canada at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. And my education was a pretty critical look at mass communication, that was my background. And so, when social media started emerging early in my career in journalism, I was pretty keyed into the negatives early on. I was always asking the question, even when Facebook, and this is obviously dating me, emerged on the scene, that is the earliest major social media platform, I was always asking the question, "What is this displacing? Where is this time going to come from? How is this shifting my creative behaviors and my relationships?"
And so, around that time, early in my career, I actually made a major move from Vancouver to Toronto. So, think just like West Coast to East Coast, essentially. And in one fell swoop, all of my relationships were all of a sudden mediated by the internet, because I'd made this major move, I only had really one close friend in the area I was moving to. And so, I started to notice my own digital behaviors shifting, and I was becoming more and more uncomfortable with my own social media habits. I was sort of creeping on the lives of my friends and family back home. Remember the good old Facebook wall? We would just do that now through snaps or whatever, see what people or the stories they're sharing. So, I was doing a lot of that and not going through the deeper, harder work of connecting directly with the people that I loved.
I was also not getting to just creative projects that I was really passionate about, like writing. I'm a creative writer, so poetry and these different things. And so, I had a curiosity about what would happen if I completely disconnected from the internet for a large chunk of time. And so, I ended up doing a 31-day fast from the internet to explore what it was like to navigate the world, a very increasingly digital world, without the internet. And so, basically, off of that experiment, I wrote a series of essays and I had to publish a reach out to me about expanding off of that into a book, and that book became the Joy of Missing Out. And that is where the work of JOMO began.
Jon Eckert:
And when did that book get published?
Christina Crook:
10 years ago.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
See, I feel like you were way ahead of the curve. This is before Jonathan Haidt had made this his passion project and other people were talking about it. So now, I think back then this would've been an early alarm. And so, I guess as you look at the future and where you're at, you've had 10 years, I'd love to hear about some of the success that you've seen and some of this shifting narrative, because I think what you shared, any adult can connect with that feeling of that being inbondaged to your device.
I deleted my email from my phone in January and that has been unbelievably freeing, because I check that 70 to 80 times a day. And I tell everybody, it's embarrassing because at least Facebook and social media, there's something fun about it. Email's not fun. Hearing from your finance director that you need to do something different at 11:15 at night, it's no fun. And I was addicted to that and I got rid of it. So, I think we all have felt that, but I'd love to hear some of the success you've seen with schools, particularly, or anyone else, because I think there's a value in this for all of us.
Christina Crook:
Yeah. So, when I started in this space, definitely I could count on one hand the people that were actively talking about this. If I even suggested to a person that they had an addictive relationship with their phone, they would get their backs up, like, "How dare you even suggest this to me?" And since then, of course, just the acceleration of the conversation, the long-term studies showing the negative impacts on our attention spans, mental health, all of the things that we talk about on a daily basis now. But the expression of JOMO in schools came about a number of years ago when the head of the wellness department at Virginia Tech reached out to me. Unbeknownst to me, she'd been following my work for years, through my podcast and books and these sorts of things. And in her own words, their best and brightest students were coming back to campus languishing before classes had even started.
And as a department, we talk about the wellness wheel, the eight dimensions of wellness, and they were seeing, across their department, how digital overuse or misuse was impacting all of these different dimensions of student well-being. And so, they'd gone looking for a digital wellness program for their students. They came up empty, one didn't exist, and so the invitation from them was to co-create a program with them. And so, that became four months of just discovery, first hand reading of the college health assessment, looking for the most recent college health assessment at Virginia Tech, looking for threads and needs and opportunities, for 10 interviews with staff and students. And there we concepted a four-week digital wellness challenge for their first year students.
Through our pilot programs, we saw a 73.8% behavior change. Students not only had made a change to their digital habits, but they intended to continue with those changes. And their changes, just like you're describing, Jon, like the one you did, which is tactically, for example, in our week one building better focus, is removing those things. We know that environmental changes are the most powerful to change a habit in our digital and our physical spaces. So, things like removing an app that is an absolute time sack, or it's just created a very unhealthy habit is the power move. And so, the reason why it was so successful for students is because they'd maybe thought about making a change to their digital habits, but they've never actually done it. And here they were being incentivized to take the action. And when they did, they felt immediate benefits. So, we knew we were onto something and that's where the work of the campus work began.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and so I think if adults feel that, how much more important is that for kids? Mine happened as a part of a 28-day digital fast that Aaron Whitehead, the book he put out on that, that our church went through it. And when I did it, the idea was, just take 28 days free of it and then you can introduce things back in. Why would I introduce that back in?
Christina Crook:
Totally.
Jon Eckert:
So, it's been great. I also do not look at my phone until after I've spent time in the Word and praying and writing each morning. And I don't even look at the phone. It used to be my alarm clock. I got an old analog alarm clock, I moved that out, that was powerful. So, as an adult, I feel that. So, I cannot imagine how 13 and 14-year-olds could deal with that. That feels like not just an uphill battle, that feels like the hill is on top of them.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
So, I'm curious. You mentioned Snapchat and I don't know if you saw this. This week, Jonathan Haidt on his substat came out with the court proceedings where he's done it to TikTok, now he's done it to Snapchat. And we've always said hard no to Snapchat, because Snapchat just feels like it was evil from the beginning, with disappearing content that you can't track but then can be screenshotted and any number of bad things can happen. But I just wanted to read this quote to you, because this is why I think your work is so important on so many levels. This was from a New Mexico court case.
He said this: "A Snap's director of security engineering said, regarding Android users who are selling drugs or child sexual abuse material on Snap. These are some of the most despicable people on earth."
This is his quote, this is a director of security. "That's fine. It's been broken for 10 years. We can tolerate tonight."
That blows my mind. And so, this is what parents and educators are up against, because in my mind, that is evil.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That is pure evil. So, that's where it's not just addiction to things that are relatively harmless in moderation, this is pushing back on something that is really, really invasive. And Jonathan Haidt talks all about this, the predators that are online, we worry about the people in the real world and the real challenges are virtual. So, where, in your current work, are you seeing some of this success paying benefits in protecting kids, A, but B, more importantly, leading to flourishing?
Christina Crook:
Yeah. So, Jon, as you know, our work has shifted from the college space down now into high schools, primarily with private Christian high schools. And where we're seeing wins and gains is at the base level of education. We talk very early on, with students, about the different systems that are at work in each of the platforms they use on a daily basis. So, let's use a TikTok or a Snap, for example. We talk about gamified systems, we talk about hook modeling, all of the mechanisms that are there to keep them. We talk about streaks. And then we have them assess the different platforms they're using and they need to identify what are the different models and how are they functioning within the platform? I think many of us can remember when the live updating feature showed up on the early social media platforms, but many of those platforms were out for many years before the live updating feature came into play.
Of course, streaks, which is just the most terrible design feature ever, but students don't really stop and think about it. But when you actually invite them to look critically, and this is why the foundation of my own education was so critical, is because I was always, and I continue to come to each of these platforms asking those hard questions. So, the gains we see with students actually looking critically at the platforms they're using on a daily basis, that's where the big wins are coming. Also, we have students do their own goal setting. So, when we work with a school, one of our first questions we ask students is, we get them to imagine, "Okay, it's graduation day, so congratulations, you've just graduated from the high school that you're listening from right now. You're wearing your cap and gown. You're looking back at your time at school and you have absolutely no regrets. What did you experience and what did you accomplish during your time here?"
And students kind of get this far afield look in their eyes and they start to wonder and consider. And so, they start to tell these beautiful stories of, "I want to make lifelong friends. I want to make friendships that will sustain me into adulthood or into college. I want to get a great GPA, because I want to get into this school." I try and prompt them sometimes to think of more fun things like, "You want to get a boyfriend." There's play, like you were saying earlier. What are the fun elements also of the experience you want to have here? I say, "Great."
Jon Eckert:
Is there a JOMO dating app?
Christina Crook:
Not yet, but we are consistently hearing from our partner schools that dating is up because students are talking to each other, which is my favorite thing. But yeah, so students share all of these goals and aspirations they have. And I say, "Great. Is the way you're currently using your phone, your primary device, helping you accomplish or experience these things?" And so, we're connecting it to what they actually want. When you start talking to a kid about technology, all they hear is the Charlie Brown teacher. They just assume that an adult is going to hate on the way they're using tech and the tech that they're using.
And so, we're trying to connect it to, "What are your desires, wants?" And that is where I believe the root to flourishing is, because it has to be. It's the desire within them. What is it that they desire, what is that core desire? And then how can they bring their technology use in alignment with that? Do I think that Snap should be thrown out the window? Well, yeah, mostly I do. I do think there are ways to strategically use almost every platform. We're a people that believe in redemption. These platforms, there are elements of them that can be redeemed. And so, yes, it is easier to eliminate an entire platform and I think there are some that, by and large, we should avoid. But I do think we also need to be asking the question, "How can these technologies be used to our benefit?"
Jon Eckert:
Okay. So, I want to start with, I love the question you ask about what would a life without regrets, when you graduate, look like? That's amazing. Love that. I also feel like I've gotten some traction with kids talking about the way the adults in their lives use their devices, because that opens the door for them to say, "Oh, yeah, I don't really like..." The Pew research study that came out last year that 46% of kids report having been phubbed, phone snubbed, by their parents when they want to talk. That's real, because everybody's felt it. And it really stinks when your primary caregiver is doing that to you. The only thing I will push back on is, I do not believe in the redemption of platforms. I believe in the redemption of human beings. And I absolutely believe that there are platforms online, some of them I won't even mention on air, but that release pornography to the world.
Those do not need to, nor can they be redeemed and they should absolutely be shut down. And I don't know where on the continuum Snapchat fits, but when I see testimony like that from your director of security, I'm like, "Yeah, I have a hard time saying that that can be redeemed, nor should it be redeemed," when the in-person connection that Snapchat replaces and the streaks that it puts out there.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Yes, if you eliminated those things, which are what monetize it, then maybe it could be redeemed, but then there is no financial incentive to redeem it. So, I would push on that, that platforms can be redeemed. And some of them shouldn't be. Now, can they be used for good? Yes. Some, not all. But Snapchat could be used to encourage a friend, could be used to... There are ways you could use it. But are there better ways? Yeah.
Christina Crook:
Absolutely.
Jon Eckert:
Let's do that, because I think that life without regrets would look differently than, "Oh, yeah, I really sent a really encouraging Snap in my junior year of high school, it made a difference." As opposed to, "I showed up for a kid in person when they were struggling."
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
I feel like we've gotten this proxy virtue signaling where like, "Oh, I posted something about that." Who cares? What did you do about it?
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
And that is where I think your question hits on. But feel free to react.
Christina Crook:
No, it's great pushback. I think the posture that we're always taking with students is, we're not starting with, "You need to eliminate this," because the assumption they have is that it's just detox. It's just the removal of something. And we're saying, "What are the joys?" That's the joy of missing out. That is our body of work. What are the joys we can enter into when we mindfully, intentionally disconnect from the internet, or use it in ways that support our wellbeing and our goals?
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, no, that's always the way. With any change, you always have to be moving towards something instead of moving away. And so, you've got to make it invitational and inviting. And that's why JOMO makes so much sense. So, what do you see, you can take this in whatever order you want, is the biggest obstacles and opportunities for the work that you're doing? So, you can start with opportunities or obstacles, but take them both.
Christina Crook:
Yeah. So, I think it's one and the same. It's parent partnership. I think it's schools' partnership with parents. We know that the majority of technology used, especially now that we've got mostly phone free or phone controlled... Majority of the schools are moving in the phone free or phone controlled. The school direction that the minute students walk off campus, it becomes the parental responsibility. So, one of the challenges schools are facing is parents communicating with their kids all day long through the exact tools that we've asked them to put away. So, the kid's excuse is, "Well, my mom needs to message me." And so, there is this security conversation. "I need my phone to be safe." And so, addressing that, and of course in the U.S. landscape, there are real safety concerns with inside schools, and so there's a legitimacy to that. But how do schools clearly communicate and solve for that?
So, we see beautiful examples. I'll use Eastern Christian and New Jersey as an example. So, they partnered with JOMO and Yonder at the same time to roll out their phone free mandate, they wrapped around the Yonder initiative with Joy and Digital Wellness Curriculum and Education. But what they did was, they established a student phone. A student phone in the school that doesn't require... There's no gate keeping. So, oftentimes they'll be like, "Oh, but you can just go to the office and use the phone." But there's a whole bunch of apprehension for students about necessarily making a phone call, for example, in front of the secretary. So, I thought that was a great solve. That was a great solve and we share that with other schools.
The opportunity is parent partnership and education. So, we are solving that by providing our partner schools with just direct plug and play parent education that goes into the regular school communications, that's digital wellbeing strategies for families, conversation starters across all the age brackets, from K to 12, additional education and resources, and then just beautiful aspirational stories of Christian families that are navigating the complexity of managing technology in a way that's really human and honest and open. So, I think it's parent partnership.
And then of course we're seeing great movements around parent pacts. I heard about Oak Hill here in Greater Toronto, that they've actually, as students come in, they're having parents sign a parent pact to delay phone use until the age of 16. It is as a community, that's a very low tech school. And so, the opportunities and initiatives around parents, I think, is exciting.
Jon Eckert:
That's very Jonathan Haidt of them.
Christina Crook:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
And I think it is a lot easier when you do that as a group than as an individual parent or kid where you feel excluded. I just wanted to ask you this, based on what you said with the designated phone at the school. Eric Ellison, our great mutual friend, sent me this Truce software. Are you familiar with this?
Christina Crook:
I am, yes. We're getting to know them.
Jon Eckert:
What do you think?
Christina Crook:
So, I haven't got a chance to see it in practice, but to me, theoretically, Truce is the best possible solution.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. That's what it looks like to me, not having seen it in action. But talk about why you think that is, because our listeners may have no idea what this is.
Christina Crook:
Yes. So, Truce is a geofencing product. So, the moment everyone comes onto campus, the ability or functionality of your personal devices is controlled by Truce. So, that means that for all phones coming onto campus, automatically, the moment you drive or walk onto campus, you cannot access social media, for example. But you can continue to message your parents all day long and vice versa. And there are other controls for teachers. There's a lot of customization within it, but it just makes sense, because all the VPNs, all the workarounds, it finally solves for that, because schools are just product on product on product, firewall on firewall, and students are very smart and they have a million workarounds. And this is the only solution I've seen that solves for all of those problems.
Jon Eckert:
And that's what I wanted to know, because students are so savvy about getting around them. The only drawback I see, because I do think this breaks down a lot of the parent concerns and it makes so you don't have the lockers, you don't have to have the pouches, you don't have to do all the management of phones, is challenging when you have to take them from students.
Christina Crook:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
Or you have to let them carry them around in their pockets, like crack cocaine in a locked magnetic box.
Christina Crook:
Don't touch it, don't touch it. Don't use it.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, right.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
So, I like it theoretically. The only drawback is, and Haidt wrote about this in 2023, there is some benefit, especially to high school students, to not having a constant access to a parent to complain about what's going on in school. A teacher gives you a grade and that's the way the student would see it. The teacher gives you a grade you don't like, and then you're immediately on your phone complaining to your parent. And before the kid even gets home, a parent's in the office to advocate or complain, depending on your perspective.
Christina Crook:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
For the student, that constant contact is not always healthy. But I get like, "Hey, if that was the only issue that schools had to deal with with phones, that would be a win." And it does keep communication with the parent and the kid. And I, as much as I hate it, have absolutely texted my children in high school something that I need them to know after school.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
And it is great when they can know those things in real time, because I didn't think far enough ahead to let them know beforehand, and I don't call the office regularly. So, I get that. But any other drawbacks you see to Truce? Because to me it does feel like a pretty ideal solution.
Christina Crook:
No, I think Truce plus JOMO is the winning combo.
Jon Eckert:
Right. And you need to understand why it's being done, because otherwise it feels like you're going to phone prison. And really, what you're saying is, no, there's this freedom for so much more if we take away these things that are turning you into a product.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
So, yeah.
Christina Crook:
And I will say, when I go into a school, I'll talk to them in a chapel, for example, with students. I basically say, "I'm in support. Props to, basically, your leadership for creating a phone controlled or phone free environment." And there's three core reasons why, and one of them is that, fragmented technologies, the studies are showing finally what I intuitively knew, and I think many of us intuitively knew more than 10 years ago, but that fragmented technology use is actually healthier. The least healthy way to live with technology is continuously. It's the first thing you touch when you wake up, the middle of the day, which props to you, Jon, for changing that habit. And it's the last thing you look at at night. And then it's tethered to your body all day long.
So, those breaks from the devices. And let's be real, the students, even if they have them on their person with a Truce-like product, they're not going to be reaching... It will be fragmented still, because they don't have anything to really reach for. Are you going to check your phone 1,800 times to see if your mom messaged? Let's be real, that's not happening.
Jon Eckert:
We've got bigger issues if you're doing that.
Christina Crook:
Yes. A podcast for another day. Yes.
Jon Eckert:
That's it. That's it.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's good. Well, hey, I love that. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about, you have a summer resource for families that I think that's helpful. And then you also have some other interesting work, and then we'll jump into our lightning round.
Christina Crook:
Great. Yeah. So, I would just encourage people to go check out jomocampus.com/summer. So, we've got a JOMO summer tips page set up. It's just a bunch of resources for families. We've got an upcoming webinar about setting your family up for screen success. We know that in the summer it can be really a free-for-all. I have kids ages 11, 13, and 15, and if we don't have a game plan for the summer, it can all fall apart very quickly. So, things like helping your kids set goals for the summer. So, we often do an incentivized reading challenge as a family for our kids over the course of the summer. So, jump in there, take a look, there's some great resources there. And yeah.
Jon Eckert:
You head to the UK next week, and talk a little bit about what you're doing there.
Christina Crook:
Yeah. So, I've been a part of a great cohort called Missional Labs, where it's a faith-based accelerator program for non-profits and for-profit organizations. And so, we'll be together for theological learning and training, both in Oxford and in London. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Going to be connecting with Will or Ewing while I'm there, the founder of the Phone-free School Movement in the UK. So, very much excited about that, and then connecting with some Lambeth Palace folks and Church of England folks. So, yeah, it's going to be a good trip.
Jon Eckert:
That is great. Well, I'm glad your work is spreading and partnering. Again, at the center, we want to connect good people doing good work. And so, that's the reason why we work with you and so grateful for that. So, we move into our lightning round here, and so I almost always start with best and or worst advice you've ever given or received. So, you can take either one in whatever order you want.
Christina Crook:
So, best and worst for me is the same.
Jon Eckert:
Okay.
Christina Crook:
So, it was a mentor I had when I was in my 20s, and he said to me, "Just say yes. Just keep saying yes." And it was the right advice at the right time, and it was like a yes to God, just doors opening. "Yes, yes, yes." But eventually, it kind of did fall apart a little bit, because you can't actually say yes to everything, because I think there are seasons where it's just like, you just got to move and maybe it's when you're younger and those yeses all need to be strong and loud and clear, and to move through fear and towards the right things. But yeah, "just say yes" was a great piece of advice for a long time, and then I had to be much more discerning as I got older.
Jon Eckert:
So good. I do commencement talks. And when I do the talks, I almost always tell them to say no to good things, because if our hearts are rightly aligned with what the Lord wants us to do, then every yes is the right yes. My problem is my pride, my ego, other things get into the way of me people pleasing, and then I say yes to way too many things, and then I'm over committed. And they're all good things, but they diminish my joy and then the joy that I'm able to bring, because I become kind of a horrendous task oriented person who's only thinking about getting stuff done instead of the human beings that are the embodied souls that we work with every day. So, I think that's a great best and worst piece of advice, because I do think those yeses, when rightly aligned, are absolutely always say yes. It's just so many times I get out of alignment, so my yeses become a problem.
So, best book that you've read or a project that you're working on that is book related.
Christina Crook:
Great. So, I do have a book. I'm rereading Life of the Beloved by Henri Nouwen. And I've been rereading it, because I am contributing a chapter to a forthcoming Nouwen collection that's coming out from Orbis Press next year. And can I read just one line that's related to what we just talked about?
Jon Eckert:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Christina Crook:
Okay. So, Henri's writing about a friend who had just visited him, and he says, "Friendship is such a holy gift, but we give it so little attention. It is so easy to let what needs to be done take priority over what needs to be lived. Friendship is more important than the work we do together."
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
Christina Crook:
And that felt like just such an invitation, but there is also a conviction in that for me, because like you, Jon, I can be deeply task oriented. My ego definitely wants to perform and complete tasks, and I need the discipline of prioritizing friendship.
Jon Eckert:
Well, yes, thank you.
Christina Crook:
And joy.
Jon Eckert:
Henri Nouwen always, what a model of how to live a rich life with what matters. But I do love, again, I'll bring up Eric Ellison again, because he's how I got connected to you.
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
He just connects friends. And so-
Christina Crook:
Incredible.
Jon Eckert:
... he lives for and with friends because of the life that he lives that's been really vital. And we've had some great dinners together, where it has nothing to do with work, it's just, how do we get to know the immortal being that's across the table from you? And I think that's easy to lose sight of when there's so much urgent work out there, but it's really the only immortal things we interact with are the human beings that we meet with. And so, keeping that in the right perspective is vital. So, no, I am grateful for that reminder. And this may feed into the last lightning round question.
What's your greatest hope as you move forward in work and life?
Christina Crook:
Yeah. My greatest hope is that the young people in our world are empowered and freed to live life to the full. I think it's possible. I think our shared friend, Darren Spyksma, often reminds me that God has not forgotten where we are in the culture, and technology can feel so scary, but I think we can have reasons for great hope for the life that youth are choosing to embrace, the good choices that they're making. I see it in my own kids and I see it on campuses every day. Students choosing life, and life beyond the screen is what I really believe is where we see fullness of life.
Jon Eckert:
That's a powerful reminder. And just as an encouragement to you, I spent the last two Tuesday nights in our foster pavilion. It's a 7,000 seat basketball arena, and it has been packed with college students primarily worshiping. One was basically a revival meeting unite, is what has gone to 17 campuses and we've had, I think, over 12,000 kids have given their lives to Christ through it. And I think over 6,000 have been baptized. And then this last week, it was a Forrest Frank concert. And you see the phones go up. The phones go up and the first one is a signal. Everybody that was dealing with anxiety, depression, anything in the last week were asked to raise their phones.
And I'm not joking, that night, of the 4,500 students that I think were in there, over 4,000 phones went up. That's a good use of a phone, to say, "Hey, I need help. I want something more."
Christina Crook:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
And I feel like that's what JOMO calls people to. And we have a hope that goes beyond just this, what world we experience daily, and I think that's where Darren's a helpful reminder. Like, "Hey, God's much bigger than all this." And so, that's the hope we all have. So, thank you so much, Christina, for the work you're doing and for being on today.
Christina Crook:
Thanks for having me, Jon.